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Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazine
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Lucy Pinder's Nuts 26 November 2013 feature is here Big Smile
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Pigeon
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Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazinePosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:00 pm    Subject: Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazine Reply with quote


@mdk1971: Thumb Up!

Dionysus wrote:
I strongly believe Lucy herself has a lot better idea and superior aesthetic understanding about what makes her look good than any other self appointed amateur god head who posts 'opinions' on this forum. ....by making her lips pouty, Lucy is perhaps showing a far better understanding of what makes her look sexy than a small number of guys with poor aesthetic judgement on a daft internet forum


Leaving aside the ad hominem attacks Hehe this simply isn't true. It's nothing to do with "this forum". Pictures of Lucy get posted on hundreds of sites all over the internet. Some of those sites are forums themselves, some are blogs which allow comments. And a very common theme among those comments is to complain about Lucy's lips. On the other hand, positive comments on the matter are vanishingly rare.

This forum simply carries the opinions of a sample of Lucy's fans. A small sample, but certainly in this case still a representative one. The reason it's full of people who don't like the results of Lucy using lip filler and only one person who does like it is that the fan community in general is like that.

Dionysus wrote:
Opinion is not equal, it belongs to a hierarchy of values ranging from inferior to superior judgement. Those who possess opinions at the lower end of this aesthetic spectrum will always resentfully oppose the individuals who possess superior judgement. The reason for this is that it makes those with poor taste feel good about themselves, and avoids the troubling self realisation that their opinion is... irrelevant.


ROFL "Anyone who disagrees possesses "inferior judgement" and can therefore be ignored" ROFL

Dionysus wrote:
One very important point about Lucy Pinder is that at a certain point in her modelling career Lucy suddenly burst into orbit and the Major League due to the expert use of one artificial beauty enhancement, and that was her eye makeup. Look at the early beach photos and Nuts photos and you just have your standard girl next door busty model; nothing special. Facially quite average. But then a couple of years into Nuts photo shoots the eye makeup changed


Again this isn't true. It didn't take "a couple of years" or a change in eye makeup style for Lucy to hit the "major league". She did it before her first year was out. Partly because of her synergistic professional relationship with Michelle, and partly because she is not "facially quite average"... she shot to the top precisely because huge numbers of people did not rate her as "nothing special", and they thought this without any special eye makeup.

Heck, look at the storm of enthusiasm for her discovery shots on the beach. No makeup, no preparation, no experience, but there was something in those shots that made people react far more strongly than to some random shot of a girl on the beach... that something being Lucy's own inherent quality.

Dionysus wrote:
Now, 'the eye of the beholder'. You may not be aware of this, but that old cliche no longer has relevance any more other than being bandied about on daft internet forums by ill informed people


Also not true. Lucy as a glamour model is absolutely dependent on "the eye of the beholder". The results of some generic study are not relevant. What is relevant is the specific reaction of Lucy's fans to Lucy. If the great majority of Lucy's fans think some change to her appearance is detrimental, then that is what matters - because it is directly connected to her success and popularity.

It's a bit like motorcycle front suspensions Hehe From an engineering/performance point of view, the hub-centre front end is greatly superior to the usual telescopic forks in all but a few highly specialised applications. But hub-centre front ends don't sell and the market is dominated by tele forks - because motorcycle fans, regardless of the technical considerations, like them better. It is the eye of the beholder which determines the commercial success - and this remains true despite motorcycle handling being a subject on which the scientific results are far more definite and certain than beauty.
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snowflake



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Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazinePosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:08 pm    Subject: Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazine Reply with quote


Before all, iwould like to think you Dionysus for daring to write your point of view cos it's a good material of discussion. Wink
I will try to comment your post an other time cos i have no long time this evening.... But I feel you stop too easyly at superficial elements for concluing. I think you are someone who deserves and is able to have a larger opening of spirit. Wink It's certain that the scientific track is sufficient to put a judgement on what can think the others about Lucy's apearence! But I can say you it's possible to see farther and understand them.
Beauty and what makes feminine attraction are made up with quantities of parameters really more important than a poll can use, and they constitute themselves combinations of wich results are not governed by the logic...
Wink

I think he has the right to express his ideas if he wants. It's a good debate. Now, each one can express any opinions to credit or to discredit. There are not bad or disrespectfull ideas, there are only ideas. Please, discuss gentlemen! Wink
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sexybeast



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Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazinePosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:30 pm    Subject: Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazine Reply with quote


Seriously guys i have absolutely no idea what u'r rambling on about anymore Confused ...Let me try and figure this out...Pigeon posted the new nuts pics after the initial clean-up job as he always does only this time he also altered the shape of Lucy's lips...that much i did understand...then Dionysus expressed his feelings about why it may not be an ethical thing to do (and i do agree with that view point) in a lengthy post..i got that too...and then we all had something to say about it...i think i was kinda clued in till then Hehe ...but why it suddenly turned into a mud-slinging match after that is not something my little brain can grasp Spinning Eyes ...besides its taking a personal tone now that i'm sure none of the forum members appreciate...remember we're all here for one reason..and one reason only.......we've got too much time on our hands Hehe Hehe
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Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazinePosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:49 am    Subject: Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazine Reply with quote


sexybeast wrote:
...but why it suddenly turned into a mud-slinging match after that is not something my little brain can grasp Spinning Eyes ...besides its taking a personal tone now that i'm sure none of the forum members appreciate...


...and in a way which is hard for me to do anything about because most of the personal stuff is directed either explicitly or implicitly at me, so to try and take action against it kind of opens the door to accusations of throwing my weight about and betraying the principles of the site etc etc.

Personally, I don't find the attacks on me particularly offensive. It's just irrelevant. We're (supposed to be) talking about the commercial repercussions of self-inflicted changes in Lucy's appearance on how she is perceived and appreciated by the fan base at large. What one person thinks of another person's photo editing abilities has nothing to do with that Smile

I do wonder if there might be a market for little helmets with a picture of Lucy and a clockwork cooling fan Hehe
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Dionysus



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Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazinePosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:18 am    Subject: Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazine Reply with quote


mdk1971 wrote:
Dionysus wrote:
I personally think such people's judgements should be deemed irrelevant and ignored.


Don't you think that's a bit disrespectful?


Don't you think that you are using Judaeo-Christian moral rhetoric to make those with good judgement and taste feel guilty?
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Marty



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Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazinePosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:03 am    Subject: Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazine Reply with quote


Dionysus wrote:
mdk1971 wrote:
Dionysus wrote:
I personally think such people's judgements should be deemed irrelevant and ignored.


Don't you think that's a bit disrespectful?


Don't you think that you are using Judaeo-Christian moral rhetoric to make those with good judgement and taste feel guilty?


Nope!
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Dionysus



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Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazinePosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:07 am    Subject: Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazine Reply with quote


mdk1971 wrote:
Dionysus wrote:
I personally think such people's judgements should be deemed irrelevant and ignored.


Don't you think that's a bit disrespectful?


Don't you think that you are using Judaeo-Christian moral rhetoric to make those with good judgement and taste feel guilty?

mdk1971 wrote:
This web site is Pigeon's and as such he can do whatever he wants to Lucy's pictures, again, regardless of whether it's considered right or wrong.




The master.... he's coming...

mdk1971 wrote:
but I just find that particular comment extremely disrespectful to Lucy, Pigeon and everyone else expressing an opinion on the subject.


Then you quite obviously have not been successful in understanding the meaning of what I wrote have you. My argument is actually in defence of Lucy and a proposal that Lucy knows better than a group of blokes on an internet forum who patronisingly assume they know more than Lucy about what makes a woman look beautiful. Hence, their opinions are irrelevant in the real world, because the only place they'd be taken seriously is by other nerd blokes on an internet forum.

You seem to also be implying that one should never be 'disrespectful' and equating being 'disrespectful' with disagreeing with someone. I disagree, but inevitably by disagreeing with you, I know you'll interpret my comments as 'disrespectful'. You're using cunning moral rhetoric to present yourself as being morally superior instead of dealing with the content of what I write.

Pigeon wrote:
Leaving aside the ad hominem attacks this simply isn't true. It's nothing to do with "this forum". Pictures of Lucy get posted on hundreds of sites all over the internet. [...] And a very common theme among those comments is to complain about Lucy's lips. On the other hand, positive comments on the matter are vanishingly rare.


I strongly disagree with you and instead I will defend Lucy's talent at making herself look amazingly sexy against your criticism of Lucy for having an inferior aesthetic judgement about her own looks compared to your patronisingly chauvinistic tendency to imply you know better than a woman what makes her look good. I base this criticism of your own judgement on how awful you made Lucy look by artificially making her lips look abnormal and grotesque when you attempted to improve her beauty with photo editing software. For me, your attempts failed terribly which is pretty good proof that in a competition between you and Lucy, I think Lucy has far better taste and judgement than you. If she didn't, she wouldn't be on the front of a popular magazine now would she?

Pigeon wrote:


This forum simply carries the opinions of a sample of Lucy's fans. A small sample, but certainly in this case still a representative one. The reason it's full of people who don't like the results of Lucy using lip filler and only one person who does like it is that the fan community in general is like that.


It's as if you're not even reading what I write. Take another look at what I previously wrote and point out to me when I have expressed that I personally prefer Lucy Pinder with her lips enhanced by botox compared to Lucy Pinder with her lips natural? Please don't disagree with something I haven't even said or argued for. To clarify, my argument is something entirely separate to that. I believe that Lucy Pinder has a far superior taste in aesthetic judgment than what the person who made those grotesque photoshop photos does. That person, i.e. you made Lucy Pinder look grotesque and abnormal in her facial features due to making a complete bodge up of her lips as they originally looked in the Nuts Magazine photo feature. If you had made Lucy look prettier, sexier, more natural I would be applauding you, but you didn't... you made a very beautiful woman look grotesque. I personally can legitimately oppose botox enhanced lips and still criticise what you did as you made Lucy look far worse than what any botox could. That's my argument, against someone with a far inferior aesthetic judgement to Lucy herself. I hope I have made my argument clear to you now and don't have to repeat it yet again, because you seem to continually misunderstood what I'm saying.

Another point, someone with poor aesthetic taste and judgement does deserve to be ignored. Art is not democratic, everyone's opinion in art is not equal, no matter what your secular Judaeo Christian ethical principles tell you. There are people in this world who have terrible and inept taste when it comes to fashion, design, art and beauty. I see no virtue in pissing up said people's back by commending their inept judgement purely for the sake of politeness. I can't think of any art critic who would disagree with me. There is a hierarchy in art and aesthetics whether you like it or not. And some people just don't know what looks good or bad. Aesthetic taste is a talent like musical talent or a sense of humour. Not all people are born with it, and not all people can learn it either.

Pigeon wrote:

Again this isn't true. It didn't take "a couple of years" or a change in eye makeup style for Lucy to hit the "major league". She did it before her first year was out. Partly because of her synergistic professional relationship with Michelle, and partly because she is not "facially quite average"... she shot to the top precisely because huge numbers of people did not rate her as "nothing special", and they thought this without any special eye makeup.


Nope, have to strongly disagree with your there. You seem to be equating a leap of success with Lucy appearing in Nuts with Michelle Marsh from the beginning. They were not massively successful to begin with. They were just two models like any other models. It was the change in eye makeup style for both women that caused a quantum leap in their wider coverage in the media and meteoric rise. Of course you will always get guys like yourself who love the au natural look of which Lucy originally possessed. And that's a valid taste as opposed to an inferior taste. But once a model is seen as having potential a makeup team is brought in and that is the point when Lucy learned how much more beautiful her eyes were capable of being with very stylish eye makeup, the style which she has kept and used to great success compared to the original busty 'girl next door' look she originally had.

Pigeon wrote:

Also not true. Lucy as a glamour model is absolutely dependent on "the eye of the beholder". The results of some generic study are not relevant. What is relevant is the specific reaction of Lucy's fans to Lucy. If the great majority of Lucy's fans think some change to her appearance is detrimental, then that is what matters - because it is directly connected to her success and popularity.


Erm, no, you are completely wrong. I can give you a 100% assurance of how incorrect you are on this subject. The reason why you are wrong is that your opinion, and that is what it is, an opinion flies in the face of factual evidence accrued from an objective scientific study carried out at Oxford University and whose findings were the subject of a BBC documentary that demonstrated when asked to rate photos of people's faces, thousands of people who took part in this study in the wide majority chose certain attributes in physical appearance that indicated very clear and common themes regarding what makes a person beautiful. This demonstrated finally that beauty is not in 'the eye of the beholder' but has an external objective reference point that points towards childlike attributes to an adult woman's face that make it beautiful. To argue against the findings of this scientific study is to express ignorance in the face of empirical data and facts. So no, it wasn't a 'generic study' as you rhetorically describe it, it was a peer reviewed reliable piece of scientific research carried out at Oxford University. Of course, people are free to disagree with factual truth, but those people are inevitably ignorant. It's far easier to maintain the myth of the 'eye of the beholder' because it's easier to understand and it makes everyone's opinion equal, even those with extremely poor taste in aesthetic judgement.

The important point to remember here is the fact that Lucy Pinder continues to make her lips look pouty. This in itself, demonstrates how irrelevant and unimportant some people's 'opinions' are on daft trivial internet forums who make male chauvinist attacks on Lucy's looks. The internet always, and inevitably represents the extreme views of a very small but extremely vocal minority. Thankfully, internet peeps are very rarely acknowledged in their extreme views. Again, this is demonstrated quite clearly by Lucy's continuation of the use of a product that makes her lips pouty. Regardless of my own dislike of the pouty lips, I'm very reassured by Lucy's professionalism in not taking notice of people who are not as talented as she is when it comes to fashion, makeup, and design. In fact.... 'well done Lucy' on not allowing nerds to dictate what you should look like. I love that independent confidence in a woman, it shows great resilience and direction in will.

snowflake wrote:
Before all, iwould like to think you Dionysus for daring to write your point of view cos it's a good material of discussion. Wink[...] I think you are someone who deserves and is able to have a larger opening of spirit. Wink
I think he has the right to express his ideas if he wants. It's a good debate. Now, each one can express any opinions to credit or to discredit. There are not bad or disrespectfull ideas, there are only ideas. Please, discuss gentlemen! Wink


You'll find snowflake that people who write like I do intelligently on the internet will be demonised, hated, chastised, deleted, banned, and misunderstood comprehensively. I'll be characterised as a 'troll', 'a flamer', being disrespectful.... but very rarely will the content of my argument be engaged with, instead it just initiates an emotional response as opposed to an intellectual rational one. Even science, fact, empirical study will be laughed at by some in order to maintain their own entrenched and dogmatic self beliefs. The reason for this is that I am something far far worse than any 'troll' or 'flamer'... I am an educated philosopher. Our type have been chastised and attacked since the dawn of civilisation. The herd always hates the light outside the cave and feels far more comfortable arguing for the benefits of the darkness of entrenched views that make them feel comfortable and important. I expect nothing less from people on the internet. This is the last place I'd expect a serious intelligent engagement with my critique of the patronising male chauvinism and attempt to control a woman like Lucy Pinder that is prevalent in some men who write utter tosh on internet forums, tosh thankfully Lucy Pinder ignores, and is most probably not even aware of.

sexybeast wrote:
Let me try and figure this out...Pigeon posted the new nuts pics after the initial clean-up job as he always does only this time he also altered the shape of Lucy's lips...that much i did understand...then Dionysus expressed his feelings about why it may not be an ethical thing to do (and i do agree with that view point)


Hi SB, I'm an amoralist, so I never propose 'moral or ethical arguments'. My critique was from an aesthetic standpoint in that what was done to Lucy's image was inept, unskilled and expressed extremely poor aesthetic taste and an inability to improve the beauty of Lucy Pinder. The photo shopping gave her abnormally thin grotesque lips which looked far far worse than anything Lucy does herself with botox. This was the point I was making, Lucy was unnecessarily made to look ugly, and I see no valid reason in why that was done. Nothing that has been said since has legitimised this Frankensteinian act of vandalism on Lucy's images. Hope this clarifies.

In summary, I defend Lucy Pinder's good taste against patronising male chauvinism and attempts to control an independent professional woman in the way she wishes and chooses to look. I cite scientific research findings to critique the cliched 'common sense' myth that 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder', the latter has now been comprehensively disproven with a large empirical body of research and evidence that shows that vast majority of humans cite childlike attributes to the facial features of a woman that determines a woman's level of hierarchical beauty. These reference points are not in each individual 'eye of the beholder' they are archetypal aesthetic features that can be mathematically predicted objectively and separately to personal subjective opinion.

The chances of some people actually getting what I'm on about on an internet forum with as trivial a subject matter as this is next to zero I do appreciate. Even someone expressing a moral distaste of something cannot see how that distaste is unavoidably embedded in a system of ethics derived from the dominant societal ethics that person was brought up in, i.e Judeao-Christian morality, whether that be secular of religious.

But you do make a good point SB, I think I have wasted my time writing all this. The male chauvinism on this forum is entrenched and defensive. Even to the point of actually going as far as digitally altering a very beautiful woman's photographic image because it is deemed that silly daft girly Lucy doesn't know what's best for her.

But I do honestly think now I've wasted my time. I think it's more important for some people to win an argument as opposed to rationally engage with it's content.

Dionysus = Archive file under 'monster'

'The higher we soar, the smaller we seem to those who cannot fly'. [Friedrich Nietzsche]

'He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.' [Friedrich Nietzsche]
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sexybeast



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Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazinePosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:54 am    Subject: Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazine Reply with quote


OMG!!!!!!!!! U just go on and on and on ROFL .....its one thing to express an opinion but another to try and cram it down other peoples' throats....give it a rest already!!
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EVISU



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Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazinePosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:16 am    Subject: Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazine Reply with quote


Dionysus i see ur a learned person so what came first

the chicken or the egg
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Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazinePosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:58 am    Subject: Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazine Reply with quote


Dionysus wrote:
I disagree 100% with the points of your argument Poggy as it seems confused and contradictory. But I'm guessing you are not aware of the contradictions in what you say.


Didn't read my post then. As it was quite clear.

Dionysus wrote:
I'm not too keen on women using botox on their lips.


But then again I guess you didn't read your own post. As this one sentence is you contradicting your own case.

Then again you don't even understand the term "Eye of the beholder" Which means a personal point of view or opinion. So is it worth reading anymore of your post or follow up posts Big Laugh
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Marty



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Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazinePosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:28 pm    Subject: Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazine Reply with quote


Dionysus wrote:
You're using cunning moral rhetoric to present yourself as being morally superior instead of dealing with the content of what I write.


Am I? Cool Hehe
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Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazinePosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:44 pm    Subject: Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazine Reply with quote


ROFL @ mdk1971 and EVISU... Thumb Up!
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Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazinePosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:23 pm    Subject: Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazine Reply with quote


Dionysus wrote:
I am an educated philosopher.


Not a very well educated one, then, since your methods of argument consist of ignoring the point under discussion, constructing a straw man position to discuss instead, and making ad hominem attacks on the straw man ROFL

(Yes, I know full well that could be taken as an ad hominem attack itself. If it was part of the argument... which it isn't Smile)

Dionysus wrote:
The male chauvinism on this forum is entrenched and defensive.... silly daft girly Lucy doesn't know what's best for her.


I spend three years arguing that Lucy does know what's best and that when something detrimental happens it's not because of Lucy being "silly daft girly", but because of things outside Lucy having a detrimental effect... and I get stupid comments like that. FFS. I'm not bothered about your increasingly vituperative personal insults at me because they're so far removed from reality that they're more funny than anything else. But misrepresenting something on which I've spent a great deal of time, effort and money as the exact opposite of what it is, apparently out of intellectual laziness disguised by verbosity, that does get on my wick.

The majority opinion among Lucy's fans at large - not just this forum, not just me - is that her use of lip filler detracts from her appearance. That it makes her look unnatural and ugly. That they are less enthusiastic about her because of it.

I don't care how many studies you cite or how many philosophical arguments you propound to make out that they are somehow "wrong" to think that. Nor do I care how many words you write trying to misrepresent it as being confined to this forum or to me in person. The observed fact - not my opinion - is that they do think it, and all the argument in the world won't change that.

Lucy does not do it because she has "superior aesthetic judgement". Lucy's "aesthetic judgement" is irrelevant. So is yours. So is mine. And so are any opinions on whether those judgements are "superior" or "inferior". What counts is the consensus of subjective opinion among Lucy's fans in general, and that consensus is - as a matter of fact, not of opinion - strongly against it, and will remain strongly against it regardless of whether you think that's "well-judged" or not.

And Lucy is certainly intelligent enough to realise this. Intelligent enough by a very considerable margin, since it's not exactly rocket science.

She also certainly isn't dumb enough to think that her fans are going to change their opinions because of some study that disagrees with them, or because some bloke thinks their opinions are philosophically invalid.

She carries on doing it because she doesn't know what people think of it. Why that should be has been the subject of much concern. Maybe she is making the same mistake as you and attributing it to "a handful of guys on an internet forum" instead of realising that it's the whole fan community - I don't know. There are a bunch of possible reasons why and no real way to figure out which ones do apply and which don't.

But it's either that or she's stupid, and despite your ridiculous comment above, neither I nor anyone else on this forum endorse that latter possibility.

Dionysus wrote:
But I do honestly think now I've wasted my time. I think it's more important for some people to win an argument as opposed to rationally engage with it's content.


Well of course, if one does not rationally engage with the content it's not possible to win the argument anyway and it is a waste of time.

I don't count saying "I strongly disagree" and then deliberately digressing into another personal attack on me - disguised as a "defence of Lucy" which, based as it is on assuming that she shares your own irrational viewpoint that philosophical arguments and an irrelevant study of something different somehow trump the personal opinions which cause people to buy her issues of Nuts in the first place, does more to make her look stupid than anything else (to anyone who actually bothers to read it all in the first place) - as "rational engagement".

Nor do I so count a mishmash of ad hominem arguments, personal attacks, appeals to emotion, misapplication of the results of irrelevant studies, and bewailing of the lot of the philosopher (and you were the first person to use the word "troll", anyway).

Yes, you don't like my editing. That's fine. I got that. I got that straight away. I didn't miss the point - I had already answered it to someone else before you even posted. I don't actually care whether you like my editing so I'm not inclined to post an elaborate defence of it... especially when I don't even like it myself (which despite my repeating it seems to have passed you by).

I haven't missed your points - it's just that they're either irrelevant, so badly argued as to be not worth bothering with, or both. You're the one who persistently misses the point (while complaining about everyone else missing yours)... and what makes it all the more futile is that you use missing the point as a tactic of argument.

So yeah. Waste of time, sure is. I can't be bothered any more.

EVISU, mdk1971, sexybeast, the floor is yours. Take it away, Eric the orchestra leader Smile
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sexybeast



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Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazinePosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:38 pm    Subject: Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazine Reply with quote


Naahhh!!! I'm sure he's a decent chap..just got carried away..probably in the middle of some kind of crisis...but one think i'd definately want to know someday P...WHAT THE HELL DID U DO TO p*ss HIM OFF SO BAD!!!! Hehe Hehe
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Marty



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Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazinePosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:36 am    Subject: Lucy Pinder in Nuts magazine Reply with quote


I can't be bothered to argue with him now either, he'd only twist my "cunning moral rhetoric" in to something far more meaningful than I intended anyway! Hehe
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